Are Tiers for Queers?

This has obviously been a hot debate topic for every Smash. I personally think in the first 2, there were official tiers and they were kind of hard to get around. I dont think any Melee Yoshi mainer could ever end up beating a Sheik, or Fox main. It just wasnt possible. Nintendo in brawl has made the list quite foggier, and I congratulate them for that. However, a list still nevertheless seems to be forming.

It appears kind of like this:
---TOP---
Snake Meta Knight

---Very High---
King Dedede
Mr.Game and Watch
Marth
Wario

---High---
Falco
ROB
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Olimar

---Standard---
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Fox
Wolf
Pit
Zero Suit Samus

---Low---
Peach
Pikachu
Sonic
Lucas
Ness
Zelda (Not Zelda/Sheik, just Zelda)
Toon Link (I love how both my mains are in low)

---Very Low---
Ike
Jigglypuff
Samus
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Sheik
Link
Mario
Sheik/Zelda
Yoshi (Sorry Zach..)
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

This Tier list is from Smashboards. Characters who are listed before others on the list but in the same ranking, for example, are deemed better.

My thoughts: When I first saw this list, I was very mad. Duh... both of the people I main are in Low!!! And are on the lowest part of low!!!!! I read a lot, and came across this website talking about what they call the

TIER SYNDROME!!!!
Now, this is how it goes. Say Snake. People realize how great he can be in brawl, and many people begin to use him and slowly get better. As he becomes more popular as more combo videos and the like are shown, he rises to top tier in people's minds. Now, Consider Yoshi. Not many players are going to want to play him, and thus less combo vids and less people to find out the characters true potential. So its kind of a conspiracy. Less people want to play the char, less ranking on tier.

I consider this true, and was wondering your thoughts. I also came up with this in my mind: Even though we can say that if a Yoshi tries hard enough and does unlock his potential, and even beats that Snake, can we stop the tier list from forming? We cant prevent people from deciding to main different characters, it's their right and choice. So.. I think Tiers are going to be here all the same. Some people think its helpful and can play top tier characters in hopes of being the best. Perhaps those on the low tier have great, even better potential than the very top, but it's simply harder to find out. We, being lazy, decide to go with Meta Knight or King DDD to make things easier and more fun to pwn faster. Nintendo's creator says that there is no tier, and all characters are equal. Now, this may not be the complete truth, but it's certainly more true than Melee.

Tiers may be helpful, and may also be a curse. They might be a cage, they might be a fighting ground.
I personally agree on the last one. Here opens a new fighting ground! Post away, comrades!

I dont think any Melee Yoshi mainer could ever end up beating a Sheik, or Fox main. It just wasnt possible.

Epic Lose, that isn't true.

Now now, I don't think there is any tiers existing, people lose to that char because that player is BETTER, you just need to be better, you need to change tactics and strategies to own that character.

TIER SYNDROME!!!!
Now, this is how it goes. Say Snake. People realize how great he can be in brawl, and many people begin to use him and slowly get better. As he becomes more popular as more combo videos and the like are shown, he rises to top tier in people's minds. Now, Consider Yoshi. Not many players are going to want to play him, and thus less combo vids and less people to find out the characters true potential. So its kind of a conspiracy. Less people want to play the char, less ranking on tier.

I don't know, I see alot of combo videos of every characters. I just think people find that snake is fun to use, and he really gives a new look on super smash bros.

Anyways..

Spoiler:

wheres wolf?

I think the Tier list is a Guideline and only a guideline. It is something competitive players use to sterotype characters. It can almost ruin your brawl experience. A tier list to me is a guideline that shows me what characters are easy to use. I don't believe in tiers. I do believe in easy to use characters. People who believe in this tier list only believe it because they can only use high tiers. My Thoughts on tiers are that Tiers exist but not to the point where players always beat Low tier characters. No, that is wrong. The way I see tiers is Top Tiers are easy and fun to use. Bottom tiers are characters that take more time to get use too. Low tiers ,if given the chance, can become a opponents worst nightmare .

Spoiler:

Aaron SMASH! wrote:wheres wolf?

who ever made the tier list hates wolf.

Here are my views on Tiers:

The player who goes for the upper-tier characters solely because of their "superior status" will not be as good as someone who chooses a character based on compatibility, aesthetic quality (a fan of their games), or playstyle. Every player has a different playstyle, and so using a character that matches your preferences only increases the overall chemistry.

I have no qualms about maining someone who's "high tier" because I know I did not choose based on his tier status; I loved G&W's quirky playstyle since Melee, and I think he's just a really cool character overall. There are no doubt other players that use G&W just because he's "high tier", and I guarantee that the majority of those G&W players won't ever win a serious set (let alone a tournament) simply because he does not match their playstyles. In turn, their overall Brawl experience will suffer.

I pity the fools!

@ Guru
I agree with you fully. I mained Marth since Melee and he has never let me down. Even though I did start maining him because I a FE fan XD. Right now I'm looking for a second main and I'm think of resurrecting my old SSB main Fox!

My quest for a second main still continues T~T

GuruKid wrote:Here are my views on Tiers:

The player who goes for the upper-tier characters solely because of their "superior status" will not be as good as someone who chooses a character based on compatibility, aesthetic quality (a fan of their games), or playstyle. Every player has a different playstyle, and so using a character that matches your preferences only increases the overall chemistry.

I have no qualms about maining someone who's "high tier" because I know I did not choose based on his tier status; I loved G&W's quirky playstyle back since Melee, and I think he's just a really cool character overall. There are no doubt other players that use G&W just because he's "high tier", and I guarantee that the majority of those G&W players won't ever win a tournament (let alone a serious set) simply because he does not match their playstyles. In turn, their overall Brawl experience will suffer.

I pity the fools!

there we go, we have the perfect answer.

I thought ike was high tier!!! Someone lied.

Tiers = For queers.

i don't really think tiers are evil or the best thing in the world. i think they show what characters are the best for beginers, whos the easiet to play with, and the easiest to controll. but at the same time you shouldn't only play brawl with it. you should just take it in consent thats all

Here are my views on Tiers:

The player who goes for the upper-tier characters solely because of their "superior status" will not be as good as someone who chooses a character based on compatibility, aesthetic quality (a fan of their games), or playstyle. Every player has a different playstyle, and so using a character that matches your preferences only increases the overall chemistry.

I have no qualms about maining someone who's "high tier" because I know I did not choose based on his tier status; I loved G&W's quirky playstyle since Melee, and I think he's just a really cool character overall. There are no doubt other players that use G&W just because he's "high tier", and I guarantee that the majority of those G&W players won't ever win a serious set (let alone a tournament) simply because he does not match their playstyles. In turn, their overall Brawl experience will suffer.

I pity the fools! Razz

i don't totally agree with you here cause it's true some people will play the high/top tier chars.
but there are 8 high/top tier (falco and rob are both above wario search the internet xD) and there is a good chance that one of those will fit the playing style of the player cause there are mostly like 6 or 7 chars you feel good with. (some more and some less but that besides the point). so you can't go saying that most g&w players won't win a serious set cause the players that chose from the high tier chose that one out of the other 8 and so will feel good playing him.

It's just an opinion, to find out potential, you must try every single character and stuff!

Toon link is the third best character in this game, bar none. He's right there at top with snake and meta knight, meta knight being on top of snake and snake being on top of toon link. The argument can be made for high at worst, but he's nowhere near low tier.

I think tiers pretty much reflect what goes on in the competitive world of smash, they change over time as the game develops and more ideas are fleshed out. They exist though, whether or not someone chooses to really acknowledge them. Some characters are at a distinct advantage against a good 30-33 characters on the roster, snake's only disadvantage is wario for example. They take into account the properties of the character, including spacing, recovery, priority, versatility, and most importantly, room to be punished. DK is considered a strong character because he takes away a crucial part of his opponent's game, their recovery, and his range/spacing and room to be punished on his better moves are very low. Wolf has great spacing, and very little room to be punished, but his recovery is pathetic. Diddy kong has amazing recovery, little to no room to be punished whatsoever, amazing spacing options, incredible priority, and amazing versatility. ZSS is a fast character but her approach options stink so her versatility is bad and her recovery is questionable.

Play the character you want, but play it to the greatest extent you can. You do yourself a disservice lazily picking a 'high tier' character and thinking itll take you further than learning your spacing, your IASA frames, your stages, your counterpicks, your stage bans, your priority, and your mindgames or just good habits. I'm picking up characters now that are distinctly better than ike in practically every way however if I didnt play Ike I'm fully convinced I'd be a much worse player for it, I had to learn things the "hard way" with a disadvantaged character that I can now apply to stronger ones and learn my way around them faster and easier.

I Yoshi is the lowest tier and Link is right above him. Ryko is right about Toon Link. He ranks pretty high.

@ Ryko
Good point about starting with Ike and learning things the "hard way". I guess starting with Marth was an easy way .

It's all in your viewpoint. Ike has a lot of disadvantages to overcome however he's a very very very simple character by design (I personally believe only pit is simpler), Marth is a very technical character that reaps rewards for all the exact same concepts applied to ike but at faster (less precise to land a hit) but more refined (way more precise to land a kill) rate and style. Playing marth is not easy mode lol.

I think a good way to say it is to play marth effectively at the start, you need a very good grasp of what you're doing and where you're going. To play ike effectively at the start, you need the same grasp but rather of what your opponent is doing. Playing as or against ike is a very good "Habit checker", I've found. If you telegraph too much, if you dont play with your mind, if you roll excessively etc ike can and will blast you off to next tuesday. Alternatively, playing ike can give you a good grasp of whether you're easily readable or not and if you're any good at punishing bad habits (since ike is so so so so so good at punishing).

Yeesh. I started this topic and left for work and came back with 14 posts
Debate topics ftw
Anyways, I still think Melee tiers were kind of the truth, but in brawl I think they're so stupid.. Nintendo made things so much more balanced its not even funny.
Toon Link should be at the top, along with Zelda... oh well. I am also considering making Toon Link my main. Zelda and Toon Link keep switching places between alt and main.. I think Toon Link suits my playstyle better...

(That and it's harder to suicide)

What do you guys think of the Tier Conspiracy? No one's really talked about that.

Rykoshet wrote: Playing marth is not easy mode lol.

This is the Best quote in the whole topic. Finally someone understands that just because Marth is high tier doesn't mean he is easy to play and win with. Ryko, you sir are full of win!

Edit: I'm saying this because at this tourney I go to these guys say Marth is a sissy easy to use character. It makes me so mad when someone can't just accept someone else is better than them.

Yes, Marth is a whole new level!

Any high tier character isnt easy to play. You think just because Snake is high tier means you can just start playing him and expect to beat Guru or something? (Not directed at you Rei) Anyone who is very good at any high tier character has skill. Lots of it. Anyone who is awesome at a low tier character has just as much. So dont go thinking because Im great at a low tier char I have more skill than that Snake. Equal

Just like Zelda and Toon Link.. I'm still learning both. But I think I know much more than some random person who decides to just now main them.

Lol, I edited my last post. Read it so I make a little more sense. XD

---As a response to Rei's edit---
Tiers are such a stupid response to losing. I personally hate it more than someone who calls me a spammer. When I hear people complain about Snake I'm like:"It's your fault you cant find any way around it." "Who do you play then?" "TL and Zelda... but either way, it doesnt matter. Tiers are for Queers Indeed."
Then they just walk off. Serves them right... Complaining about tiers just proves their inability to improve. Think about it next time you lose. Are you going to get mad and complain, or are you going to ask things so you can improve?

Zephron© wrote:---As a response to Rei's edit---
Tiers are such a stupid response to losing. I personally hate it more than someone who calls me a spammer. When I hear people complain about Snake I'm like:"It's your fault you cant find any way around it." "Who do you play then?" "TL and Zelda... but either way, it doesnt matter. Tiers are for Queers Indeed."
Then they just walk off. Serves them right... Complaining about tiers just proves their inability to improve. Think about it next time you lose. Are you going to get mad and complain, or are you going to ask things so you can improve?

Thanks for agreeing! This won't stop those jerks though. T~T. I'll just have to keep get my satification though destroying them in the tourney every week XP.

Rei Kaze wrote:
Thanks for agreeing! This won't stop those jerks though. T~T. I'll just have to keep get my satification though destroying them in the tourney every week XP.

Lol. Good Luck pwning them next tourney too!

Rykoshet wrote:Toon link is the third best character in this game, bar none. He's right there at top with snake and meta knight, meta knight being on top of snake and snake being on top of toon link. The argument can be made for high at worst, but he's nowhere near low tier.

Are you referring to me wondering why on earth Smashboards has him low? I so agree how he has so much potential. Your saying this makes me want to play him more

Any list that has him low automatically makes me question it >_> yeah

if toon link is the 3rd best, who's 1st and 2nd? lol.