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zachisasian
Rei
LittleV
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Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by LittleV Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:40 am
After using moves several times, they get weaker.
They Decay.
But there are rumors of moves getting weaker depending on:
1. Connecting.
2. Hitting nothing.
3. Over time.
I want to clear up these rumors.
I think it would be knowledgable here.
From SWF.
-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.
-Attacks that are bottomed out will recharge faster than attacks near max power. For example, if you use attack A for the first time, then a different attack, then A again, the second A will be weaker. However, if you weaken attack A to its minimum power, then use a different attack, then A again, the second A will be a bit stronger.
-The game remembers a lot of your attacks. I'm not sure if there's a threshold for the number of other moves you need to do before it forgets about a worn out attack and resets it (I know it remembers at least 12). I mean, I did 23% with Ike's Fsmash, did 8 other attacks, and my next Fsmash did 21%. It seems a max power attack will maintain its power with about 10 other attacks between each use, though.
-When you die, your power levels get reset. Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching(!). Your power levels are not increased by waiting, attacking thin air, attacking someone who is blocking, getting attacked yourself, or switching your attacks to someone else (thus, attacking marth then sheik then marth with one attack will weaken it just as much as using it on marth 3 times).
-All attacks refresh other attacks equally. If you weaken attack X through repeated use, 10 weak jabs will recharge it just as much as 10 fully charged smashes. Different hits of A combos count as seperate attacks, as do seperate throws and throw punches(!). However, repeated hits of infinite punches (like sheik, fox, etc) and drill attacks (mario's Dair) do not count as seperate. Projectiles are weird, too: only the first needle in Sheik's needle storm counts.
-Attacking someone who's countering doesn't count. It counts for the counterer, though, so each successive counter will be weaker, regardless of the attack they're countering.
-Attacking an object DOES count. For example, attacking wario's bike, any destructible things like the walls in MGS land or Luigi's mansion, etc.
-There's a tiny bit of randomization in the damages
- damage doesn't decrease in training mode. This confused me for a while.
I'm just assuming knockback is proportional to damage here, as damage was a lot easier to measure. I used Ike for my tests, and I reset him (killed him) at each line break.
They Decay.
But there are rumors of moves getting weaker depending on:
1. Connecting.
2. Hitting nothing.
3. Over time.
I want to clear up these rumors.
I think it would be knowledgable here.
From SWF.
-An attack's power decreases on a curve after each successive use, first dropping sharply, then slowly bottoming out to a bit less than half the attack's max power after about 8 uses. You recharge your moves by using different attacks. It doesn't matter if you spam 1 attack, it will still recharge your other previously used attacks.
-Attacks that are bottomed out will recharge faster than attacks near max power. For example, if you use attack A for the first time, then a different attack, then A again, the second A will be weaker. However, if you weaken attack A to its minimum power, then use a different attack, then A again, the second A will be a bit stronger.
-The game remembers a lot of your attacks. I'm not sure if there's a threshold for the number of other moves you need to do before it forgets about a worn out attack and resets it (I know it remembers at least 12). I mean, I did 23% with Ike's Fsmash, did 8 other attacks, and my next Fsmash did 21%. It seems a max power attack will maintain its power with about 10 other attacks between each use, though.
-When you die, your power levels get reset. Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching(!). Your power levels are not increased by waiting, attacking thin air, attacking someone who is blocking, getting attacked yourself, or switching your attacks to someone else (thus, attacking marth then sheik then marth with one attack will weaken it just as much as using it on marth 3 times).
-All attacks refresh other attacks equally. If you weaken attack X through repeated use, 10 weak jabs will recharge it just as much as 10 fully charged smashes. Different hits of A combos count as seperate attacks, as do seperate throws and throw punches(!). However, repeated hits of infinite punches (like sheik, fox, etc) and drill attacks (mario's Dair) do not count as seperate. Projectiles are weird, too: only the first needle in Sheik's needle storm counts.
-Attacking someone who's countering doesn't count. It counts for the counterer, though, so each successive counter will be weaker, regardless of the attack they're countering.
-Attacking an object DOES count. For example, attacking wario's bike, any destructible things like the walls in MGS land or Luigi's mansion, etc.
-There's a tiny bit of randomization in the damages
- damage doesn't decrease in training mode. This confused me for a while.
I'm just assuming knockback is proportional to damage here, as damage was a lot easier to measure. I used Ike for my tests, and I reset him (killed him) at each line break.
LittleV- Smash Novice
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by LittleV Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:41 am
nuuuuuumbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers
dt=downtilt, fs=fsmash, na=nair etc
fs23, 19, 18, 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 11, 10, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10...
dt14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 8, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7
Full charge B 38, 34, 29, 27, 25, 22, 20, 19, 17, 17, 18, grab punchx20, charge B 38, gpx10, cB 36, gpx15, cB39
Dtilt:14 Ftilt:16 Fsmash:23 Dsmash:14
dt13 ft13 fs21 ds12
dt12 ft14 fs19 ds12 <-went through this cycle twice more but the numbers bottomed out here
dt14, ft16, fs23, ds14, ut12, na10
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut12, na8
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na9
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft16, 13, 13, 11, 9
dt13, ft10, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7, 8, dt13, ft9, dt13, ft9, dt12, ft11, dt11, ft11, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10
fs23, ft15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
fs21, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, 19, 18, ft11, fs16, ft10, 11, fs16, ft12, 10, fs16
fs23, ftx9, fs23
AAA combo 4/5/7, 3/5/6, 3/4/6, 3/4/6
spam first hit till it only does 2 or 1 %
AAA combo 1/6/7
dt=downtilt, fs=fsmash, na=nair etc
fs23, 19, 18, 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 11, 10, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10...
dt14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 8, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 6, 7, 6, 7
Full charge B 38, 34, 29, 27, 25, 22, 20, 19, 17, 17, 18, grab punchx20, charge B 38, gpx10, cB 36, gpx15, cB39
Dtilt:14 Ftilt:16 Fsmash:23 Dsmash:14
dt13 ft13 fs21 ds12
dt12 ft14 fs19 ds12 <-went through this cycle twice more but the numbers bottomed out here
dt14, ft16, fs23, ds14, ut12, na10
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut12, na8
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na9
dt13, ft14, fs21, ds12, ut11, na8
dt14, ft16, 13, 13, 11, 9
dt13, ft10, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8
dt13, ft9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7, 8, dt13, ft9, dt13, ft9, dt12, ft11, dt11, ft11, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10, ft12, dt10
fs23, ft15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
fs21, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, ft8, 8, 9, 8, 7, 8, 7
fs22, 19, 18, ft11, fs16, ft10, 11, fs16, ft12, 10, fs16
fs23, ftx9, fs23
AAA combo 4/5/7, 3/5/6, 3/4/6, 3/4/6
spam first hit till it only does 2 or 1 %
AAA combo 1/6/7
LittleV- Smash Novice
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by Rei Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:00 am
Good read LittleV 
I never really knew how in depth this was xD.
I never really knew how in depth this was xD.
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by zachisasian Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:27 pm
brawl just counts your last 9 attacks. you might want to add that somewhere.
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by Rei Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:39 pm
zachisasian wrote:brawl just counts your last 9 attacks. you might want to add that somewhere.
Yeah, I knew this already lol. Zach is too smart though =o.
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by GuruKid Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:19 pm
Thanks for putting this up, LittleV; always great to refresh your memory on this kind of stuff.
Just another reason why PT is awesome.
LittleV wrote:Zelda/PT can also reset their power through switching(!).
Just another reason why PT is awesome.
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by Plaid02 Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:52 pm
I never thought this made much of a difference. It's never really stopped any spamming I've seen, and doesn't decrease power enough to make spamming lose in a cost/benefit analysis for noobs. Just my opinion, but I don't ever pay attention to stale moves. I didn't look at the numbers carefully, but it only seemed to do 4% difference max.
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by LittleV Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:07 pm
It makes all of the difference.
Being able to kill at low percents is what you should be aiming for, using a common move that's lost it's power may make it hard to kill.
These numbers?
For show.
That's why there's deep analysis, regardless if you(general) care what this says, y'know?
What you should remember is that stuff like switching poke'mon, and changing into Sheik from Zelda, may be the refresh you need.
Regardless, it's always good to be full of knowledge.
Being able to kill at low percents is what you should be aiming for, using a common move that's lost it's power may make it hard to kill.
These numbers?
For show.
That's why there's deep analysis, regardless if you(general) care what this says, y'know?
What you should remember is that stuff like switching poke'mon, and changing into Sheik from Zelda, may be the refresh you need.
Regardless, it's always good to be full of knowledge.
LittleV- Smash Novice
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Re: Rules on Stale/Move/Decay
by Kingdom Come Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:37 pm
Thanks for posting this.
I have had some questions in the past about this and they have all been answered thx!
I have had some questions in the past about this and they have all been answered thx!
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