The "State of the Underground" Address

by **GuruKid** Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:42 am

Now, I'm not one to start "drama", but I'd just like to say a couple things. Ahem, ahem, ahem....

I have long awaited to see this site blossom into what would one day be a beautiful, prosperous rose, that I would one day be able to walk by and smell it with pride. Recently, I have not been able to walk by this lively rose. This rose is wilting into what I hoped it would not wilt into.

When Taz and I first made this site I had meant for Underground to be at a competitive level, and not merely a casual gamer's site. It has fallen so far off track that I firmly believe the site is dead... as dead as far as I can see. There is such little activity it may as well be "dead". It goes without saying that competition naturally increases popularity; that phenomenon happens in all aspects of life, and Smash is no different: AiB with its ladder and tournament features, the famous online clans out there, and, of course, SmashBoards. If this site is to ever grow, it has to make a drastic change in direction.

Also...

I'd like to address another issue with this site: cliquishness. Simpy put, the site has recently looked like an "elementary school"-style hangout spot; our circle is so set in stone that "outsiders" have a hard time feeling welcome to our community. This last one is a big part of why this site struggles just to get new members. I've seen a lot of potential members come and go; with my own eyes I've seen members make threads or go on the chat, ask for brawl friendlies, and receive no response. Even if they do get brawls, I still believe we are not welcoming enough. We may just say "hi" but we usually revert to our "old friends". We never really give our members a chance to "join" (in the true sense of the word).

I know I'm no longer leader of this site, but I felt the need to address this issue. Smash Underground seemed to have had a great foundation and was set on success... then somehow, at some point in time, it foundation and direction faded.

My conclusion - Fate's Ultimatum to the Underground: Take the competitive, welcoming direction and blossom... or rot away, withering rose...

Rot away.

by HanZo Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:23 am

.....poor rose...lol damn Guru that speaks to me ALOT. im sure it'll giv ever1 else this feeling..& an idea

by Jaguaris Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:44 am

...Um, I really hate to say this but this is kinda true, we are rarely brawling and most of us have kinda put our attention to art. We are new members by the minute as well. We've even lost members like CJ cause of the lack of competitive play. Geez.

by **Zephron©** Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:16 am

GuruKid wrote:When Taz and I first made this site I had meant for Underground to be at a competitive level, and not merely a casual gamer's site. It has fallen so far off track that I firmly believe the site is dead... as dead as far as I can see. There is such little activity it may as well be "dead". It goes without saying that competition naturally increases popularity; that phenomenon happens in all aspects of life, and Smash is no different: AiB with its ladder and tournament features, the famous online clans out there, and, of course, SmashBoards. If this site is to ever grow, it has to make a drastic change in direction.

Good for you, Guru, for saying what others have not.

Besides not letting new members into our "cliques", which certainly do exist, I feel that most of the members here are not really in a competitive stance right now. Most of you are "hobbyists" so to speak.
We need steadfast members who want to compete. Not just little weeklies. I mean competing.

As for welcoming new members, I have tried to brawl them as soon as they come in, as of late. I feel that if you brawl them immediately, (because most of them want that anyway) they know they can be noticed and not ignored here. I just wish I had more time to Q_Q Guys, help me with this 'kay?

My hopes were pretty much everything Guru wanted as well... I don't want this to be a dead hobbyist site... let's make this into a blossoming hardcore brawler paradise :O

by **Zero** Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:08 pm

People wouldn't want to brawl me as a first challenge though : P.

by SmAsHman Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:45 pm

Wow, yaeh I totally agree there. Mainly with the clique thing, actually. I could never put my finger on what it was, but you did pretty well there.

As for competitiveness... idk, im not that great but I'm always wanting to play matches and get better, and it seems like everyone is like that. More participation in tournys would be nice tho.

by **Raimu** Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:30 pm

Hey, sorry to be so inactive recently. But, I have a few things to say on the topic.

Yes, I would like this board to be more active. And, well, my league is pretty much dead, as you all can see. And there are certainly cliques, this happens on all forums, you can't really change that. Its when these cliques become unwelcoming that there is a problem.

The main problem with your idea of a competitive level site, is competition. We have much larger smash communities on the net that do everything our little board does, but better, and by a large margin. Smashboards for instance. We're a corner store on the world wide web, and we're trying to compete with Wal-Mart, its just not going to happen. Perhaps, its time we re-envision the purpose of SU. It is a good place to hang out, but, we need something that nobody else has, at least to us who call it home.

P.S. Theres nothing wrong with casual brawlers. We need them just as much as we need our so-called pros Razz

by SmAsHman Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:43 pm

Man, those you made some really good points.

by **Zephron©** Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:55 pm

Raimu wrote:The main problem with your idea of a competitive level site, is competition. We have much larger smash communities on the net that do everything our little board does, but better, and by a large margin. Smashboards for instance. We're a corner store on the world wide web, and we're trying to compete with Wal-Mart, its just not going to happen. Perhaps, its time we re-envision the purpose of SU. It is a good place to hang out, but, we need something that nobody else has, at least to us who call it home.

P.S. Theres nothing wrong with casual brawlers. We need them just as much as we need our so-called pros

I doubt Guru or me really expected to trump Smashboards or anything. But I do want more of our posts more correllated with Brawl. Most of our posts are on other topics, or game topics like the Ban Game, which is really getting out of hand. I'd like to see more Brawl related topics, relating gameplay and simple questions about ATs, or just tips from other members who know that character and are willing to help others improve. (Essential)

Well of course we need casual brawlers, Raimu. However, we all know this site was created for Brawl, and I want it to actually be associated with it now.

Re-envision the purpose of SU.... quite the job. I think, given infinite amounts of time, we might be able to get as big as the f5 site : | But that is pushing it a bit.

I really think all Raimu and Guru are saying is essential though. Let's talk through this. Now.

by Kingdom Come Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:41 am

Ok, I am banned right after I post this, but, the guy who made this site, had the vision, and made the thread said I should chip and has given me the honor of replying to this thread.

So, the site has some potential not as much as it used to apparently. In my opinion some people are just dead space here, even some of the active members, because they never wanna make a post or brawl or even chat for that matter. Some of the users here are just downright rude to everyone. Some of the users here are just downright spammers, and no one has yet to fix any of this. Not me, not you, not the guy who reads this after you, and not the guy next you.

It seems as though someone is on the same page with me when I say "we need to be a clan". I have said time and time again we have a shytload of talent here in all aspects. So why not use it? We got artists, brawlers, people who can promote *points to self*, and some people who just wanna have fun. By doing the clans, we can spread the word.

We also need to promote ourselves and I know a dude who could probably help us with that. I can also help. We should bring back the Wifi Alliance tracker. Advertise on Youtube. Create an SU group on AiB. We also need to promote more events here. Homerun contests, Movie Nights, Homework Help, Weeklies, Smashhour. It doesn't matter what, we need to give members a reason to stay.

The "cliquishness". I, myself would like to say I am part of that problem. I am sorry. I always help out new members so we can get more in the "International Clique" if you catch my drift. There are 2 cliques. I would say I am very accepting to having new members in the clique. The most recent addition was IceBurns. Not cliquey but IMO me and Plaid got cool with eachother.

Also, some members just absolutely hate eachother. Look, if you hate a guy, don't say anything to him. As Taz put it "we are all family" we shouldn't be hating each other in the first place. I may seem like a hypocrite but I don't hate some dude I have never met. That's childish and silly. Me and Taz are cool. Plaid and I are cool. Rei and I seem to be cool. Jagz and I are cool. Let's all work together to make this a great place.

Lastly, I believe that the admins, although they haven't necessarily done a poor job, they have lacked in getting new members. The E.T. has yet to do some promotions. IMO I don't believe the admins running the site could run the site any longer.....

1) GuruKid- Great admin, Great Person, Great Brawler, Great Leader. Plain and simple he doesn't wanna be the admin.

2)Taz-Probably the best admin period the end(.) You are just hardly ever on as far as I can tell bro.

3)Rei-Potentially the best admin. Your always trying to come up with a solution and you come up with some good ones (until I get banned lol jk) but, if we are to go competitive you yourself stated you would rather be in f5 then lead this sites clan. Sorry to say, but I don't think we would be able to last if one of our leaders wanted to be in another clan and not lead his own.

We need to "Stay out of the barn." Meaning we need to leave our comfort zone and try something different. We need to break from being casual gamers to people who want to compete, have fun brawling other clans, and make new friends. We need to break from our cliques so we can embrace members that we can never get if we continue down this path.

We need to stop being Kingdom Come.
We need to stop being Such and such.
We need to stop acting like your better than your fellow forum mates.

We need to stop being individuals!!!

And, we need to come together as Smash Underground!

by Jaguaris Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:23 am

That is the best speech ever. It illustrates what we really need to do. Clans could actually help. I know what happened at Return to Brawl wasn't the greatest thing but we need to come up with some thing. If it increases our popularity then it could be the best thing for us.

I'm sure that right now. Me and Kingdom are the only members of Smash city that are left. And we are both very active. considering what has happened to Nitelite, that is one member gone, a new member joins and goes, more gone, and we lost CJ, another gone.

We need to solve this NOW!

by HanZo Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:28 am

u know that rly speaks to me and tbh King's got point! if we were a clan and advertize ppl would be interested in us and come check it out. Also the Homework Help idea?...GENIUS!!! ...(not saying im stupid...jus forgetful..) lol if we had the wii alliance back im Positive ppl will show it happened be4 didnt?

by PhailWhale Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:29 am

Jaguaris wrote:
I'm sure that right now. Me and Kingdom are the only members of Smash city that are left.

...

by Jaguaris Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:31 am

Oops, and 2l8 is one of them...sorry.

by **Zephron©** Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:26 am

Jaguaris wrote:Oops, and 2l8 is one of them...sorry.

That made me rofl. Anyways...

I am still super opposed to clans. We have had this topic MANY times before, and I do not think that is our problem, really. Our problems, as everyone has stated, are the cliques, and potential new members. You want to "spread the word", but personally I just know it that the clan would fail, even IF you got enough members. Plus all of our best ones are in f5 now... yeah. I think not.

No offense Kingdom, you talk as if no one has ever tried to join the forum after a certain point. People most certainly are! However, we are leaving them in the dark as for what to do. They also end up feeling unwelcomed, and there you go, there's one more guy who is leaving for Smashboards or something.

The E.T hasn't promoted anybody? Ugh. Raimu and Doc have been distracted as of late, but in case you didn't noticed both have posted recently, and are still chatting with me on Yahoo. We don't want to promote anybody yet, and have no need. We have been making events, and are scheduling another one, if you continue to make it seem like we aren't doing anything... <.<

It was a nice ending and all, but the "We need to stop being individuals" part fails <.<
It's like Raimu said, this site needs casual gamers. Not saying that you disagree with that though.

Rei is indeed the best admin, not just potentially. He and Taz are working on something VERY big right now and I think you shouldn't keep thinking he'd rather be in f5. I can't speak for him but I really hate it how you keep doing stuff like that...

Sorry Kingdom, but let's agree to disagree.

by Iceburns Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:06 pm

I have to say, as a returning member, that not many things have changed since I left...Things are still the same, there is the same things there were before. We are not an active site, out of the total members we have (and we do have a good number), 20 are active, and out of those 20, only 14 brawl, out of those 14, only 8 are active, out of those 8, only 6/5 want to brawl anytime...We're a brawling community, and that is the last thing we do... We play more forum games than actually brawl. We need more events, more players, more recruiting, more admins active, more events staff, we need more people to help make this community grow and not die out like it is been doing so.
I am at Kingdom's side, sorry to say it to those, who are not. But if we don't do what he suggested, this community is going to rot. It will become completely dead...
Let's make the flower blossom, let's water it and take care of it, let's make the flower strong, make it grow steady roots, and let it spread it's joy! We have to grow together, we need to like our community, and let us make it grow. I'm sorry to say that we are actually loosing more members than gaining, and this will continue to happen until we have only one member left...Petro and CJ are gone now, and I have seen a lot of members who were active, leaving this community. I remember Crazy Clown...He was an active member...And yet, he left.
I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting, I'm not the one who made this community, who shaped it, I'm the one who joined it, and now I want to help make it better, to turn the stone into a statue.
Conclusion: I'm with Kingdom.

by Jaguaris Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:22 pm

Also Fyro is from smash city...Sorry Fyro.

I am also at Kingdom's and Iceburn's side of the argument. We really need to do something. We have 143 people who joined and only 20 are active. That is a poor number. If this "big thing" Rei and Taz are planning will help this site grow then I personally can't wait for it.

by Rei Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:09 pm

This was posted in the Admins boards yesterday morning in response to this thread. I didn't want to post anything in this thread yet so I could see how things would playout or how people would react. GuruKid asked me to bring our discussion to the public so I am doing so at his request.

Rei wrote:Guru, I am 110% with you. I think you are absolutely right, but there are some problem with this forum and I think I'm going to need all 3 admins to help each other.

First off, some of my friends (Shadowth, Overgames, ect). have registered here but have left . I was wondering why they never reappeared so I asked them. The response I got was "Some of your members don't like or respect you.". This confused me for a moment and then I knew what they were talking about. Time after time I have made these long and huge post asking and demand that this forum change yet some of our members neglect to listen to what I'm trying to say. I have done this so much that I have almost felt like quitting. I know that I have barely any athority over our members. Bans don't even scare them now. Usually if I ip ban they some how get taken off the ip ban list . (I don't know how that happens.). This forum we are using doesn't really do it's job. The lack of respect is so low that I don't know what to do...

Ok, I'll start off responding to Kingdom since his was the longest.

@Kingdom

In my opinion some people are just dead space here, even some of the active members, because they never wanna make a post or brawl or even chat for that matter. Some of the users here are just downright rude to everyone. Some of the users here are just downright spammers, and no one has yet to fix any of this.

Nobody here is "dead space". Yes, they do spam but what forum doesn't have spam. I'm not saying it's right but its something one must get used to when participating in a online community. I have tried to fix it but the end result usually comes to people arguing with me or just spamming to spite me. So, I just sit back and let you guys have fun.

It seems as though someone is on the same page with me when I say "we need to be a clan". I have said time and time again we have a shytload of talent here in all aspects. So why not use it? We got artists, brawlers, people who can promote *points to self*, and some people who just wanna have fun. By doing the clans, we can spread the word.

We have already had a clan and it failed. I'm not going over this again. Like I have said before, If you wish to have a Clan make a site and start your own. The Admins decided it was best not to have a clan in this forum.

Create an SU group on AiB. We also need to promote more events here. Homerun contests, Movie Nights, Homework Help, Weeklies, Smashhour. It doesn't matter what, we need to give members a reason to stay.

Ok. This sound alright.

The "cliquishness". I, myself would like to say I am part of that problem. I am sorry. I always help out new members so we can get more in the "International Clique" if you catch my drift. There are 2 cliques. I would say I am very accepting to having new members in the clique. The most recent addition was IceBurns. Not cliquey but IMO me and Plaid got cool with eachother.

I don't want an International Clique... I would rather just have everyone be a friendly brawl community (competitive too).

Lastly, I believe that the admins, although they haven't necessarily done a poor job, they have lacked in getting new members. The E.T. has yet to do some promotions. IMO I don't believe the admins running the site could run the site any longer.....

Don't say the Events Team haven't been doing their job when the have been doing an excellent job. We just lack members and activity. The E.T. have started SUBL 1, SUBL 2, The 2v2 tourny, the New years Bash, the Christmas Raffle, and are coming up with new ideas and it has only been a month. You fail to realise that we can only do so much with so little members. If you feel like we shouldn't run this site then that is your own personal problem and opinion. I'm sorry but personally when I wasn't asked to be elected, I was chosen. I accepted because I wanted to help this site.

3)Rei-Potentially the best admin. Your always trying to come up with a solution and you come up with some good ones (until I get banned lol jk) but, if we are to go competitive you yourself stated you would rather be in f5 then lead this sites clan. Sorry to say, but I don't think we would be able to last if one of our leaders wanted to be in another clan and not lead his own.

Rei wrote:We have already had a clan and it failed. I'm not going over this again. Like I have said before, If you wish to have a Clan make a site and start your own. The Admins decided it was best not to have a clan in this forum.

The first quarter of this was nice, thank you. The second half made me lol. You talk as if we have/are getting a clan. No. We are not getting a clan. Second of all, you make it seem like I can't have a life outside of this community. Stop being so controlling. I joined the Fatal Five because I wanted to. Renegade and Crzy asked me to join so I said "why not?". I made a promise to the Fatal Five when I was trying out that I would get in and stay in. I have friends over there like I have friends over here and I don't plan on dropping any of them on either side just because you want a clan that wouldn't work.

Also, the reason why you get banned is the simple fact that you have broken every rule in this forum and then some. You have pm'd people cursing at them because they commented about your "Pineapple Slice" phrase. You have made numorous spam thread after I and even GuruKid have deleted some. You have attacked members, made threads directed at indivisual members, and have even sexually harrassed some of us. If you need more reason why you get banned then I can tell you the rest.

Even after all has been said and done I always give you a second chance... kind of funny. Even now, I don't hold the slightest grudge because that isn't who I am.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now the Zephron part Razz

Zephron wrote:
I am still super opposed to clans. We have had this topic MANY times before, and I do not think that is our problem, really. Our problems, as everyone has stated, are the cliques, and potential new members. You want to "spread the word", but personally I just know it that the clan would fail, even IF you got enough members. Plus all of our best ones are in f5 now... yeah. I think not.

Yes, this is some of the other reason why the Clan idea wouldn't work.

Rei is indeed the best admin, not just potentially. He and Taz are working on something VERY big right now and I think you shouldn't keep thinking he'd rather be in f5. I can't speak for him but I really hate it how you keep doing stuff like that...

Thanks Zeph, It meant a lot. :$:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Iceburns section xD

Iceburns wrote:I have to say, as a returning member, that not many things have changed since I left...Things are still the same, there is the same things there were before.

Well, when you left they were MANY things that had changed. Leaderboard, Gyms, a Clan, SUBL, Bi Weeklies, Weeklies, themed tournaments and much more that I can't remember right now. Sadly, most of these things failed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For my closing remarks

I have made topics adressing the community yet, the ones the don't like me, spite me and do exactly the opposite of what I have asked. So I'll let you in on what I did. I decided to sit back and watch what would happen if I let you do most of the things you wanted to do and it ended just how I thought it would... complaining and fingers pointing at each other. You have finally had a taste of your own medicine and now you don't like it. Heh, I sound awefully arrogant right now but sadly I'm telling the truth =/.

I was hoping that one day Guru would make a topic telling you guys to cut it out so you would actually listen because it seems he gets much more respect then I do. Thanks for bringing all of this up Guru, maybe now they will listen. ^_^

Future of the site Part 1

Lol, well I'm done. Razz

Ignore any typos, please.

by Plaid02 Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:33 pm

We seem to spend most of our time arguing over things we can't really change. As funny as that is to me, the same argued points that are consistently brought up are starting to get old.

I have made topics adressing the community yet, the ones the don't like me, spite me and do exactly the opposite of what I have asked. So I'll let you in on what I did. I decided to sit back and watch what would happen if I let you do most of the things you wanted to do and it ended just how I thought it would... complaining and fingers pointing at each other. You have finally had a taste of your own medicine and now you don't like it. Heh, I sound awefully arrogant right now but sadly I'm telling the truth =/.

I thought that was really really funny. Maybe I just find amusement in the wrong sort of places, but seriously it's time for some more "tough love" kind of leadership. Rei, you can make bans for a couple of days at least, right? You should probably give those out more to show you do mean business and not just long topics saying you mean business. Just my opinion. The bit about people finding their way around ip bans worries me.

The thing about the newcomers is they never come onto the chat in my opinion. We should really put that in the sticky explaining the rules to newcomers, and stress it. Tell them if they want to brawl, go to the chat.

As for participation in weeklies, maybe we could make bi weeklies hosted by the events team on saturdays. Since some of us can't make it on Sunday and others can't on saturday, we should just alternate which it is based on the week. The Saturday ones should be hosted by the events team because I know Rei has said saturdays don't work for him. Again, just a suggestion.

And, last but not least, Raimu's brawl league. I think one problem is a lack of deadlines, another a lack of prizes. I was looking for someone else to brawl to get into the league but couldn't really find anyone. Then I forgot. Also, if you're on the chat or whatever telling people to do the league matches, it seems more likely they will.

Mostly this was made because I'm rather bored, but hopefully it at least makes sense. I'm not quite sure if it does, and I don't really want to review it.

by Rei Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:00 pm

Well, I have been giving "tough love" out but like I said, no one is takes the bans seriously when they can get around it... I have been giving out a lot of bans lately. Nitelite is banned right now for 468346340852358 days.

I guess from now on I'll have to start a penalty fee or take away all their post count or something. This is getting ridiculous.

The Bi Weekly thing sound great if the Events Team would like to do it.

by Kingdom Come Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:14 pm

I wasn't taking shots at Rei when I said what I said about F5 or leading this clan. Zeph, you and Plaid also said you would rather be in F5.

Starting a clan? What harm can possibly come from this? We should at least try to give it a shot. We can make some friends and at the very least have fun brawling and maybe even learn a thing or two.

The SUBL never worked because some members never played their matches.

I suggest a grand tournament, and we post it on AiB just like the burning brawlers do.

We can have a monthly series "Best of SU" where for four months January, February, March, and April, we have a grand tourney the 2 finalists of each
tournament gets to go to the champions finals. It would be an 8-man tournaments of all 1st and 2nd place finishers to decide who the best at SU is.

Not saying we should ditch weeklies.

I can make brackets albeit not with tio.

I have an idea on how to spend smash points and earn them.

"I have recently installed a point system. You can look at your bar to the left to see how many points you have. Everybody will start out with 10 points out of 500. To get points you may Gamble in the challenge zone, sell artwork, win tournaments, and be active. I will give all the active members 5 forum points at the end of each month. If you are selling artwork you must sell for a minimum of 5 points. The weekly tournaments will begin soon for Super Smash Bros. Brawl and points will be given for that. You may challenge specific members in the challenge zone for a certain amount of points, they may decline. So start getting points so you can buy art, host tournaments, buy a title, color your name, and more soon to come.

Hope you enjoy!"

-Straight from Smash Realm (edited by mod) no advertising.

Also regarding Plaid's comments how new members never go to the chat...that is like the first place all new members go.

IP bans.....no comments.

Also Rei, when I said "international clique" I was referring to me, 2l8 , Jagz, Danny, Fyro, Iceburns and usually the members who get the lesser amount if attention. That is the most welcoming clique IMO. There is another clique.......

BTW idk if I should say this but Guru thanks for making those edits to that "rough draft".

by HanZo Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:33 pm

Hmm im with kingdom on this 99% if we actually think it seems like a very good idea.
BUT ditching weeklies? i don't think so true i have not went to NOT ONE tourny but its the only thing that we could look foward too and learn from others so if u still havent goten my point i say let weeklies stay

by Iceburns Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:38 pm

He said we shouldn't ditch weeklies, lol.
''Not saying we should ditch weeklies.'' - Kingdom Come.
Yup, you can read it above(I don't feel like using the quote command, kk).

by Kingdom Come Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:39 pm

Kingdom Come wrote:
Not saying we should ditch weeklies.

by HanZo Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:46 pm

...*laughs awkwardly* WELL DONT I FEEL LIKE AN DUMB@$$ ahh...i'll jus stop talking...

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